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Thread: Buttonwillow 13CW Critique Please-M3

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    Default Buttonwillow 13CW Critique Please-M3

    Hey guys, recently got into tracking my car and would love some advice/ help to see where I can cut some time and improve as a driver. My car is a 6mt 2015 M3 on 265/35/18 and 285/35/18 Hankook RS3s with extremely worn OEM brake pads (replacing before I go out there again- this was their 6th event). Any input on line help/ driving techniques is greatly appreciated as I am a noob! This clip is of a 2:04.02 lap with a theoretical best lap time of 2:01.45 via Harry's Lap timer.
    Thanks!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6WWCQC7Mbw



    Went back out to Buttonwillow this past weekend with a best lap of 2:02.469. I upgraded my pads to Pagid RS29 and was also running 245/40/18 and 275/40/18 used NT01s that I found on craigslist.
    Here's a video of two back to back 2:02 laps with the second one being the fastest.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G08fL1_FKCo



    Any more comments/suggestions/tips to help me get faster would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks for the help so far guys and hopefully I'll be at 2 minutes soon!

    UPDATE:
    This past weekend I went back to Buttonwillow with Speed Ventures on 4/9 and 4/10. I mounted my Hankook RS3s because I thought it would rain all weekend and didn't want to drive on my bald NT01s. Luckily, most of the sessions over the weekend were dry! My best lap was a 2:02.5 on the RS3s. I definitely think I can shave off a couple more seconds just by being more consistent with my driving.
    I was bittersweet matching my previous time on Nt01s with my RS3s. I know that I could have definitely clocked in a better time but I still showed improvement. Here are some of the videos from the weekend:



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsP2WzQbrGE


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CdfX1mttYg


    I think my best lap would have been the one where I went off at sweeper (second lap of first video). Once again, any comments/suggestions/critiques would be greatly appreciated.

    UPDATE: 5/20/16 Went back to BW and turned a 1:59.4. This time I had traction control completely disabled. Thanks everyone for your help the improvements are really starting to show but I know that there is a lot more left in the car! Any tips once again would be greatly appreciated.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQeySdJrAzc


    UPDATE: 3/31/17 PR: 1:57.5! I have had multiple 1:56.xx laps according to predictive lap times on my AIM SOLO, but I lack the consistency to piece a fast lap altogether.
    Hopefully in the next couple events I can dip into the 56s. Thank you all for you the advice so far.
    I am open to more critiques to help me get there and maybe even into the 55s!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7kTv_5V4Kg
    Last edited by kkashanchi; 05-11-2017 at 10:18 PM.

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    Ok, since no one else is replying to you here goes; Drive faster.

    I am not trying to be glib with that comment. If on most if not all of your corner exits you are not needing to use the entire track for your track out, you are not carrying the maximum amount of speed for that corner.

    A 2.5 to 3 second delta in theoretical lap time also indicates that you are off the maximum potential in almost all corners. At BW I would say that the delta from theoretical to best lap should be within a second, maybe 1.25 seconds.

    Until you are using the entire track, out of necessity, it is pointless to be worrying about anything else. My advice would be; even if it you aren't carrying enough speed to necessitate using the entire track for corner entry and track out, drive a line that does use the entire track space. This builds muscle memory, gives a proper sight picture, and defines for you a baseline envelope that you can confidently use to know when you aren't carrying enough corner speed and that you can make corrections from. Meaning, you will be able to tell when you are artificially driving the proper line instead of having to drive the proper line because you are carrying so much speed that it is needed without looping the car. Once you define that envelop, you can safely say to yourself that you could have carried another 5 MPH through that corner because you "drove the track out" instead of being pushed out.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Yep. Use more track, and more of your corners should look like your sweeper exit (use the whole track, use more of the curbs to catch you).

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    Agree with the above -- carry more speed into the corners and brake later. Also some specifics:

    - Brake later and less into Sunrise (T1):
    On performance street tires in an M3, you should be able to stand on the brakes at the kerbs -- in the vid, your car seems to pitch down before the connector pavement. And you don't have to stay on the brakes as long, either. It's an increasing-radius corner, so you can carry more through it than you think at first.
    - Brake less into the exit corner of Bus Stop (T6B)
    - Carry more speed through Riverside (T8):
    You stay tight on the exit in the video, but you should be carrying enough to need to use the whole track on exit. Most cars can handle 90+mph through there without breaking a sweat. (This is more of a "do as I say and not as I do" kinda thing if you watch my videos -- I'm working on it )
    - The biggest single time-killer I saw was your exit to Sweeper (T10) into the esses:
    The sweeper is a double apex corner. You entered with a slightly early apex -- which is correct -- but then you kept it tight which scrubs most of your speed off as you pinch it off not to run off the first left-side kerb in the esses. This is a time-killer because it's the entry to the fastest section of the track.

    Instead, enter T10 with that same early apex, but then let the car track out about 3/4s of the way towards the left edge of the track (but not far enough to get onto the dirty bits). You should be on management throttle here (no braking). Then about 2/3rds of the way through the corner, lift throttle a bit to give the front end some bite, and the car will-tuck in for a late apex. Once the car is set, get back on throttle and stay there. If you apex late enough, and use enough kerbs, you should be able to remain WOT until the braking zone for Sunset (T12)

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    Thanks for the tips guys! I'll definitely focus on trying to use more of the track my next time out which should be the 26th of this month. Also, hopefully with some better brake pads (non-oem) I'll have more confidence to brake later for the turns you guys mentioned. Sweeper needs some work and I'll try to track out before the second apex to get a better exit. I'll post a video of my best lap this next time out for comparison.

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    You should swap your brake fluid out for Motul 600 or similar if you haven't already. Your stock fluid will flash boil before your stock pads will fade. Then pick up more aggressive street pads.

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    I'm running Castrol SRF; I've tried Motul rbf600 but I would have to bleed the brakes after every event for good pedal feel. The SRF has kept pretty good pedal feel even after 3 events, but I'll be bleeding them before this next event. Since the car is also my DD I'm looking to get some track only pads like Pagid RS29s and keep oem pads for the street to avoid noise or excessive brake dust.

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    Yeah, the Motul has to be bled after every event, and changed out about every 6 months. I hear you about doing track-only pads. I've got hybrids on my 911 and the squeal on the street is annoying. I know myself though, and even though I know I'd be happy to swap for track pads when I'm teching before a track day, I'd be too lazy to swap them back out for streets after.

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    Luckily swapping pads on my car is a breeze so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. From what I've heard even hybrid pads tend to not hold up well at the track when facing lots of heat, what kind of pads are you on and how do they hold up to track duty?

    Also, when tracking your 911 are you running with every sort of traction/stability control off?

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    I'm running Cool Carbons, and they're actually really great on the track with not too much squeal on the road -- none if I brake a bit more aggressively than normal for the road. They're fade-free for HPDE use as long as you don't hammer 100% on every lap. I've actually flash boiled my Motul fluid and still not experienced fade.

    I run with TC off. It upsets the car on exit IMHO. I'm running 305s on the rear, so I've got plenty of stick back there. That, plus it's a stock C2, so I've only got maybe 290hp at the wheels -- it takes a lot to break-away that much rubber.

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    Went back out to Buttonwillow this past weekend with a best lap of 2:02.469. I upgraded my pads to Pagid RS29 and was also running 245/40/18 and 275/40/18 used NT01s that I found on craigslist.
    Here's a video of two back to back 2:02 laps with the second one being the fastest.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G08fL1_FKCo

    Any more comments/suggestions/tips to help me get faster would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks for the help so far guys and hopefully I'll be at 2 minutes soon!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bongo View Post
    I'm running Cool Carbons, and they're actually really great on the track with not too much squeal on the road -- none if I brake a bit more aggressively than normal for the road. They're fade-free for HPDE use as long as you don't hammer 100% on every lap. I've actually flash boiled my Motul fluid and still not experienced fade.

    I run with TC off. It upsets the car on exit IMHO. I'm running 305s on the rear, so I've got plenty of stick back there. That, plus it's a stock C2, so I've only got maybe 290hp at the wheels -- it takes a lot to break-away that much rubber.
    I definitely need to start to drive with TC completely off. I really enjoy the peace of mind and safety net euro mdm provides though. The problem is that it is inconsistent and sometimes prematurely steps in and other times does not intervene at all and allows some pretty big slip angles. Sometimes I can tell that its intervention is unnecessary and is slowing me down. I think that I will get up to speed and turn laps at around 2 minutes flat and then I will turn it all off and slowly pick up speed again. But thats subject to change so we'll see..

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    Senior Member JulioG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkashanchi View Post
    I think that I will get up to speed and turn laps at around 2 minutes flat and then I will turn it all off and slowly pick up speed again
    IMHO, if you aren't comfortable with driving with all aids off, you should be working on that instead of chasing lap times..

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    Quote Originally Posted by JulioG View Post
    IMHO, if you aren't comfortable with driving with all aids off, you should be working on that instead of chasing lap times..
    I appreciate the input. I don't feel that I am uncomfortable with driving with all the aids off because of lack of driver skill. The intervention really never steps in to save me- but it may be kicking in without me noticing... I just like the peace of mind just in case something does go wrong that I don't meet a wall and or roll the car. I definitely should run with all the aids off soon, but at that point I'll probably start buying HPDE insurance and get some better safety gear. Either that or get a dedicated track car that won't set me back as much if I total the car.
    Last edited by kkashanchi; 03-29-2016 at 03:46 PM.

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    Ok, the level of aggression and confidence are coming along. That's good. You're using more track in more places, but you're only using enough track in maybe half the lap at most.

    Your next big gains will come from using the whole track over the whole lap.

    Work on precision. If the computer is keeping you from placing the car where you want it every time, you might have to start learning to work without it. Otherwise, you can keep it on, I think there's plenty more time to be had with it on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Ok, the level of aggression and confidence are coming along. That's good. You're using more track in more places, but you're only using enough track in maybe half the lap at most.

    Your next big gains will come from using the whole track over the whole lap.

    Work on precision. If the computer is keeping you from placing the car where you want it every time, you might have to start learning to work without it. Otherwise, you can keep it on, I think there's plenty more time to be had with it on.
    I appreciate the advice. I can see that I can track out more at buttonhook and bus stop and use more track before turn in at phil hill and sweeper. Are there any specific spots that I missed/stood out to you where I should use more track?
    It might be that I think there is less track then there actually is! I'll be back at Buttonwillow April 9/10 and I'll work on using the entire track. Thanks!

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    If you can't feel the curb with your tires, you're not using enough! Some curbs the car doesn't like, but I'm sure you know what I mean.

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    Nice improvement! Keep TC on unless you absolutely have to take it off. It'll help teach you to be smooth with your steering and throttle inputs. Although it wasn't in an M car, I was able to hit 1.50 in my car with the traction in R mode.

    Before every track day at BRP, I used to review Billy's Buttonwillow Bible. Very helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon H View Post
    Nice improvement! Keep TC on unless you absolutely have to take it off. It'll help teach you to be smooth with your steering and throttle inputs. Although it wasn't in an M car, I was able to hit 1.50 in my car with the traction in R mode.

    Before every track day at BRP, I used to review Billy's Buttonwillow Bible. Very helpful.
    Thank you, wow that is blazing fast- very impressive time! I have also been reading that article religiously before BRP track days and even in between sessions at the track haha.

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    Updated the initial post with videos from this past weekend at Buttonwillow, please help me get to sub 2 min!

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