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Thread: I guess its my turn to request a driving critique - Buttonwillow 13CW

  1. #1
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    Default I guess its my turn to request a driving critique - Buttonwillow 13CW

    So this weekend i finally got the 2 minute monkey off my back and I'm confident there is still a lot of fat in this, but would like fresh eyes on what im doing.

    Car is a S2000 with the normal S2K Challenge mod setup (square wheels, coilovers, wing/splitter etc).

    Here is the video:
    https://youtu.be/n-UrrkL78xw

    ***
    I was going to post my notes on this but I think its better to wait and not taint the reviewers focus and opinion

    Thanks in advance!

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    Silky smooth, wicked fast.

    I am sure others may see a few tenth's here and there; but, to me, it's almost textbook.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Not really loving the downshift after turn in technique. Also looks like you might be able to clip more of the bus stop off. Some chicken lifts of the throttle that might be avoidable.

    Overall not too shabby. Congrats on going below 2min!

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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Not really loving the downshift after turn in technique. Also looks like you might be able to clip more of the bus stop off. Some chicken lifts of the throttle that might be avoidable.

    Overall not too shabby. Congrats on going below 2min!
    Yep, thats a habit I'm working to break.

    Thanks!

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    I think you can scare yourself more on phil hill, but you have no cage. So yeah.

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    Senior Member CharleyH's Avatar
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    Great lap

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    1. Assuming this is an AP1 (seeing 8200rpm in data overlay), you were shifting too early and too much. On front straight, you had enough revs left to stay in 4th. Roughly .2s lost

    2. Your habit of downshifting after turning in must be stopped immediately. This is costing you gobs of time. I'll explain why; By not having the extra engine braking, the car doesn't want to rotate into the turn as well. So you brake early and enter the turn slower to compensate. Secondly, you make an abrupt steering input when you let go of the wheel to shift. This is either breaking the tires loose when it shouldn't, or you are going slower to keep from sliding on entry. So T1 you enter slower than the car is capable of.

    3. Into Offramp, you again upshift for no reason, losing probably .1s

    4. Your late downshift habit once again cause you to overshoot and miss the apex by about 5'. The little elevation gain and cambered section right at the apex of Offramp allows a much more violent steering input. You can rotate the car much harder there, go in faster, turn the wheel quicker. .1s lost

    5. 1st right in Cotton Corners you turn in too late, carrying too little speed. This turn should be heavily trailbraked. You then overshoot the right and end up too far to the left and lose speed around the left. You don't begin making your steering input for the left until you are on top of the apex. Fast line through those first two turns is to stay tight on the right side after exiting the first right then late apex the first left at the base of the hill so you can raise min speed in that left. This also allows you to get on the power much sooner. You had to make a long lift after the crested right turn because you were so far to the right going up the hill. .2s lost

    6. You cruise into the right at Grapevine then suddenly add a bunch of steering lock right at the apex. Turning in much too late. Don't. Crank in whatever steering lock you need for the entire arc around Grapevine, from the far left side kerb. Not from 20' before the apex like you did. .2s lost

    7. Club Corner looks good. Slow steering inputs, flat on the throttle, using all the track.

    8. Brake harder for Bus Stop and get on the power a tick sooner. .1s lost

    9. It is one steering input from the exit of Bus Stop through Riverside. You seem to be lost there, wavering back and forth a bit. Go in with a plan and carve one big arc. Those extra steering inputs just scrub speed. .2s lost

    10. Phil Hill pretty good but still turning in a bit late. Again that late downshift messing up the turn. .2s lost

    11. Straight after Phill Hill. Again you upshift 800rpm too early then downshift barely a second later. .1s lost.

    12. Correct entry for Sweeper is to turn towards inner edge of track, then brake at threshold in a straight line. You braked in a straight line on far left of track much too soon then began turning in. You also did the late downshift which cost you entry speed. Once on the inside, follow it about halfway through the turn then begin drifting out to set up the exit. It is paramount that you nail that apex to be able to get on the power as early as possible. You missed the apex by about 5'. Lost about .2s

    13. Sunset. Argh, that late downshift. Blew that turn too. Lost .2s

    Your line around the track is almost perfect save for the 3-4 turns where you turn in too late because of the late downshifts. Use the brakes harder and begin releasing them sooner.

    Job 1 for you is to master the downshifts though. I'd say the car has another 1.2~1.4s in it.
    Last edited by emilio700; 04-11-2017 at 05:26 PM.
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    1. Assuming this is and AP1, you were shifting too early and too much. On front straight, you had enough revs left to stay in 4th. Roughly .2s lost


    Job 1 for you is to master the downshifts though. I'd say the car has another 1.2~1.4s in it.
    Car is AP2 so lower redline.

    Awesome thanks!

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    Impressive comments from Emilio. Way more than a few tenth's.

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    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    1. Assuming this is an AP1 (seeing 8200rpm in data overlay), you were shifting too early and too much. On front straight, you had enough revs left to stay in 4th. Roughly .2s lost

    2. Your habit of downshifting after turning in must be stopped immediately. This is costing you gobs of time. I'll explain why; By not having the extra engine braking, the car doesn't want to rotate into the turn as well. So you brake early and enter the turn slower to compensate. Secondly, you make an abrupt steering input when you let go of the wheel to shift. This is either breaking the tires loose when it shouldn't, or you are going slower to keep from sliding on entry. So T1 you enter slower than the car is capable of.

    3. Into Offramp, you again upshift for no reason, losing probably .1s

    4. Your late downshift habit once again cause you to overshoot and miss the apex by about 5'. The little elevation gain and cambered section right at the apex of Offramp allows a much more violent steering input. You can rotate the car much harder there, go in faster, turn the wheel quicker. .1s lost

    5. 1st right in Cotton Corners you turn in too late, carrying too little speed. This turn should be heavily trailbraked. You then overshoot the right and end up too far to the left and lose speed around the left. You don't begin making your steering input for the left until you are on top of the apex. Fast line through those first two turns is to stay tight on the right side after exiting the first right then late apex the first left at the base of the hill so you can raise min speed in that left. This also allows you to get on the power much sooner. You had to make a long lift after the crested right turn because you were so far to the right going up the hill. .2s lost

    6. You cruise into the right at Grapevine then suddenly add a bunch of steering lock right at the apex. Turning in much too late. Don't. Crank in whatever steering lock you need for the entire arc around Grapevine, from the far left side kerb. Not from 20' before the apex like you did. .2s lost

    7. Club Corner looks good. Slow steering inputs, flat on the throttle, using all the track.

    8. Brake harder for Bus Stop and get on the power a tick sooner. .1s lost

    9. It is one steering input from the exit of Bus Stop through Riverside. You seem to be lost there, wavering back and forth a bit. Go in with a plan and carve one big arc. Those extra steering inputs just scrub speed. .2s lost

    10. Phil Hill pretty good but still turning in a bit late. Again that late downshift messing up the turn. .2s lost

    11. Straight after Phill Hill. Again you upshift 800rpm too early then downshift barely a second later. .1s lost.

    12. Correct entry for Sweeper is to turn towards inner edge of track, then brake at threshold in a straight line. You braked in a straight line on far left of track much too soon then began turning in. You also did the late downshift which cost you entry speed. Once on the inside, follow it about halfway through the turn then begin drifting out to set up the exit. It is paramount that you nail that apex to be able to get on the power as early as possible. You missed the apex by about 5'. Lost about .2s

    13. Sunset. Argh, that late downshift. Blew that turn too. Lost .2s

    Your line around the track is almost perfect save for the 3-4 turns where you turn in too late because of the late downshifts. Use the brakes harder and begin releasing them sooner.

    Job 1 for you is to master the downshifts though. I'd say the car has another 1.2~1.4s in it.
    Emilio,

    What might some of those comments look like on data?

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    Also if anyone wants to really rip me apart, ive got full data into a soloDL and im happy to share it.

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    Emilio,

    What might some of those comments look like on data?
    Shallow slopes into min speed on speed trace, instead of steeper slopes. Lower min speeds in turns. g plots that start shallow them level out instead of nice table top ones.
    bawareca and anorexicpoodle like this.
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anorexicpoodle View Post
    Also if anyone wants to really rip me apart, ive got full data into a soloDL and im happy to share it.
    I always say I will learn take the time to learn data, but 99% of the time I don't even turn on my in-car camera. It would be interesting to see how data reconciles with E's comments not to grill you but to learn something.

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Once you learn how to read data it is a good idea to put a really quick driver in for a single data lap for you to reference off of. In Supermiata since we are all essentially driving the same car, the top drivers give their data to whoever asks.
    bawareca and anorexicpoodle like this.
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Take all of this with a grain of salt. I agree with most everything Rob and Emilio have to say. The places I differ with Emilio are probably due to Emilio having more advanced skills than I do.

    I agree with the bad shifting habit. Id say you are missing your apex marks by more than 5' in some corners. The in car camera always seems to look closer than reality.

    Overall and for the entire cotton corner complex I agree with Emilio. However, due to me not be the most comfortable trail braker out there, I think you turn in too early for the first right. If you hang it out later though with trail braking, you'd be end around in a heart beat. So if you are practicing trail braking, Id stick to what Emilio is saying, if not trail braking, turn in a bit later, stay tight to the right and not push out to the left, stay tight to the left on the left hander and follow Emilios guidance overall through the whole complex. Basically sacrifice the first two corners for a really good setup over the hill right hander.You are also way over braking between the first right and left hander. Maybe a light tap of the brakes, maybe modulated power after the right I can't recall. But definitely not .9 of long G.

    Busstop:You seem to fade into the turn in. Again Id turn in a bit later here without any inside fading. This is again probably because I am not the driver Emilio is. But a bit later turn in and staying outside on right side entry curbing gives me a bit more escape route options on the exit if I blow it. Fast at the busstop exit requires full commitment. Never can a later turn in come at the cost of missing the apex though. All the benefit of more track out options go away if you don't hit your apex marker.

    Riverside: 100% agree with Emilio.

    Phil Hill:Agree with Emilio, pretty good. But Id say your time lost is greater than .3 . The time lost at Phil is measured at the brake zone for the sweeper. But instead of saying you lost time, id say you still have some time to be found. Your line is good. Now it is about ramping up the commitment and aggression here. Controlled aggression. Rob calls that "drive angrier". Be careful with that though. You need to be in control over Phil or tears to follow.

    I also agree with Emilio and Rob that the shifting is the first priority. Combine that with hitting your marks with precision. Once that is complete, then you can work on corner nuance effectively. Useless until then because as you correct the shifting, it will change up everything else in the corner.

    Very nice drive and very good control of your car. Great job.
    anorexicpoodle likes this.

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