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Thread: Looking to get HANS device 3 point compatible

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Default Looking to get HANS device 3 point compatible

    What title says. I need advice in getting a 3 point compatible HANS device for tracking my GT350. Speed scares me, that I am going 8 seconds faster than a Spec Miata, but with 1/5 of add-on safety equipment a SM has.

    1. Does it help ? Or am I just overthinking it ? That I should just trust factory airbag.

    2. Which one to get ? The $1,100 Simpson one seem quite a bit too pricey considering regular HANS is 1/2 that.
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 08-15-2017 at 10:39 AM.
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    This is the problem with mixing safety systems. Road cars have one system, and race cars have another system, and they are not necessarily compatible as the components were not designed to work together.

    Example: In a frontal collision, wearing your harness, your face and chest might not get to the airbag, as they would with a lap/sash, it might hold your torso back in the seat, so the airbag may be less effective. Or with only a 3 point harness, you might submarine under the airbag. That's a bit of speculation on my part of course, but you get the idea.

    But to answer your question, I can't picture why a HANS would need to be 3 point compatible, as long as the shoulder straps stay sittnig on it.

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    Senior Member JulioG's Avatar
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    I have the Simpson Hybrid, designed to be used with 3 pt OEM belts. Coincidentally, the first time I used the system was during a Ford GT350 event at Laguna Seca..
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    Will, use the Simpson Hybrid. Those are the only ones I have seen factory drivers use when doing track testing with OE systems. $1100 is the base, I have seen them on sale for less this year at 900-1000.
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    I was hoping the Simpson Hybrid Sport (for $599) would work with the 3-point harness. But it is only designed for 5 or 6 point harness. The Simpson Hybrid S (For $1100+) is the one that works with the 3-point seat belts. Damn!

    Quote Originally Posted by JulioG View Post
    I have the Simpson Hybrid, designed to be used with 3 pt OEM belts. Coincidentally, the first time I used the system was during a Ford GT350 event at Laguna Seca..
    Last edited by e5pr1t; 08-15-2017 at 05:24 AM.
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    Senior Member CharleyH's Avatar
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    I'm not sure how much a HANS type device helps in a car with a three point restraint and an air bag. HANS devices are good additions to racing harnesses because the harness is designed to hold your body tightly in the seat during an accident and tha HANS reduces how far your head can move forward in a frontal impact (as we all know). But three point restraint systems with air bags are designed to work differently. If you look closely at the shoulder strap on a three point system you will see that there is a section where the seat belt overlaps a couple of times and is stitched together. This is a tear strip and is designed to slowly tear apart in a frontal crash to allow the body to gradually move forward into the airbag so you don't get the high neck loads that cause basal fractures. I suppose any added safety devices are a good thing, but I'm not sure how much more effective a HANS type device would be when added to the three point system.

    My 2 cents.....

    Charley
    Last edited by CharleyH; 08-15-2017 at 07:49 AM.
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    JJ1
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    Modern safety equipment is pretty good. I'd leave it alone unless you do seat, harness and bar. Does it come with multiple air bags too? Like side impact curtains?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    1. Does it help ? Or am I just overthinking it ? That I should just trust factory airbag.
    I recall reading there broad agreement among manufactures that there is no issue with using any HNR device with an airbag w/ motorsport helmets.

    My two cents: given how HNR device functions, I'd take my chances with one designed for 3pt rather than forgo it. This is a choice I'd personally make.

    Average head weighs 10-11lb, helmets typically around 4lb (actual). That's 35-40% heavier than our present biological design parameters. That extra mass is significantly more force in sudden stops of the crashing variety (consider that extra mass/force in the 70g test!). Until medicine can catch up with mechanics, surgeons kind of suck at fixing things to be like new by comparison (bless 'em both). At least the car can be perfect again.

    Here's the old thread from 2015. Gary Milgrom's response in particular.
    Head/Neck Restraints for Street Cars (3pt Seat belts)

    That old thread needs updating, i.e. any new players in 3pt offering.

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    Also, If price prevented me from buying a 3pt rated device, I'd absolutely _consider_ wearing some of the HNR devices designed for karting/moto such as the EVS. I'm not recommending it to anyone, and I'm fully aware of the counter arguments. But it might be a personal choice I make if in similar circumstances for a one-off track day in a car not fully race prepped.

    There is no "price" you can put upon your personal safety. On the flip side there most definitely is a price from any angle you look at it.

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyH View Post
    I'm not sure how much a HANS type device helps in a car with a three point restraint and an air bag. HANS devices are good additions to racing harnesses because the harness is designed to hold your body tightly in the seat during an accident and tha HANS reduces how far your head can move forward in a frontal impact (as we all know). But three point restraint systems with air bags are designed to work differently. If you look closely at the shoulder strap on a three point system you will see that there is a section where the seat belt overlaps a couple of times and is stitched together. This is a tear strip and is designed to slowly tear apart in a frontal crash to allow the body to gradually move forward into the airbag so you don't get the high neck loads that cause basal fractures. I suppose any added safety devices are a good thing, but I'm not sure how much more effective a HANS type device would be when added to the three point system.

    My 2 cents.....

    Charley
    The Simpson Hybrid does what a HANS device does, it just doesn't rely on shoulder harnesses to do the job and replaces them with a body collar.
    William, don't dick around with it, the Simpson is the way to go.

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    It sounds like it isn't clear cut for newer cars. If I were tracking a 79 RX7, I would definitely need it. But with 10 air bags in 2017 cars, just not sure.
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    Two variables that makes me lean towards the Hybrid-S

    1. Nothing in the OEM system to protect the head if you hit something on the right side. The Hybrid-S has limited effectiveness in that scenario but it's better than nothing. OEM airbags on left side of driver protect in impacts from that side only.
    I'm not putting halo seats or center net in my street car.

    2. Multiple impacts. This is the core difference between OEM and race car safety equipment. Airbags only deploy once. HNRS keeps working until you come to a stop.
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    Well that might be the only thing that is clear. That safety devices for road cars aren't compulsory tested for >40mph+ impacts into stationary objects. The fact that they save lives at higher rates of speed is entirely attributed to their crash worthiness at sub 40mph impacts (and whatever engineers have the foresight to design). Obviously, 40mph might be the minimum speed we see at any track. And while most of our impacts are car/car, it's the occasional impacts with stationary impacts that are sadly memorable.

    Aside from testing done by Simpson on 3pts, this thread is conjecture. I truly have no idea.

    We each assume all risks for our participation, and can choose to mitigate them to the best of our wallet. I did at one point encourage Simpson to offer a budget 3pt, as I do believe there is a sufficient market for it.
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    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanB View Post
    Well that might be the only thing that is clear. That safety devices for road cars aren't compulsory tested for >40mph+ impacts into stationary objects.
    Years ago I read a very comprehensive motorcycle crash head injury study. It might have been The Hurt Report by Dr. Hurt of all names.

    I couple of things really stood out.
    1. Helmets really do work well. Almost any head protection is better than none. Even a padded baseball cap was found to provide some help, although they certainly weren't advocating ball caps. More expensive helmets did not appear to provide measurably better protection dispelling the notion of "If you have a $120 head then wear a $120 helmet."
    2. The average speed at impact was something really low like 19 or 21 MPH as I recall. Sure the rider might be traveling much faster before the accident, but at the time of impact the speed is quite low.

    Hence, that is probably why the car tests are done mostly at lower speeds.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    2. The average speed at impact was something really low like 19 or 21 MPH as I recall. Sure the rider might be traveling much faster before the accident, but at the time of impact the speed is quite low.
    it might be the same report I read. the rider can be traveling at say 70MPH. say his head hits ground at 40MPH. assume it is a flat ground, in reality, vertical impact is a LOT less. more like 15MPH. I remember that's why Snell test them at much lower speed.
    this is based on my old faded unscientific memory.........
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    Will, we see stock Corvettes, Mustangs, Chargers, etc well north of 130 on Road Atlanta. I would not dare to insinuate anything here, so take it for what it's worth, if anything wear one for your family. The injuries we are seeing at HPDEs or open sessions partially stem from modern, daily-driven cars capable of running faster and quicker. Even with the SRS systems, I would still want that extra protection and not need it than deal with the consequences of the opposite.
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    More expensive helmets did not appear to provide measurably better protection dispelling the notion of "If you have a $120 head then wear a $120 helmet."
    This may or may not be true in some scenarios, but definitely isn't the case in ALL scenarios.
    Also, cheaper helmets tend to be heavier, so the strain on your neck is definitely greater.
    Typically helmets that cost more have features that your average cheapo helmet doesn't, things like easy to remove internal padding with straps to allow safety crews to remove your helmet after a crash with minimal pressure and potential of hurting your neck further (Sparco has that), or built in earmuffs (Stilo), better ventilation etc...
    I won't even get into quality related issues... You get what you pay for.

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    I don't mind paying $5k for HANS if I know it will definitely be quite a bit safer.
    I just can't wrap my head around why it costs twice the regular HANS.
    in a caged car (with 6 point harness, etc..), HANS is a BIG deal. but in a modern car with 10+ airbag, I just am not quite sure if it really is safer, if so, significantly.......
    If I were a HPDE instructor, then yes. because I could be getting into passenger seat of a 74 911 or 86 MR2....but I've stopped getting into other people's car, unless it is a log booked race car. then it is just regular HANS.

    where is our safety police, fatbillybob.....
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    It's the only game in town, they can charge whatever they want for it.
    HANS devices were north of $1K too at some point...
    Last edited by Blackbird; 08-15-2017 at 04:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    I don't mind paying $5k for HANS if I know it will definitely be quite a bit safer.
    I just can't wrap my head around why it costs twice the regular HANS.
    in a caged car (with 6 point harness, etc..), HANS is a BIG deal. but in a modern car with 10+ airbag, I just am not quite sure if it really is safer, if so, significantly.......
    If I were a HPDE instructor, then yes. because I could be getting into passenger seat of a 74 911 or 86 MR2....but I've stopped getting into other people's car, unless it is a log booked race car. then it is just regular HANS.

    where is our safety police, fatbillybob.....
    Airbags are meant to protect in street use applications. Street vs track situations are a bit different. Assuming the SRS would be fine on the track in a deployment event is dangerous IMO. This anecdote comes to mind in this instance. My father was compelled to testify in a number of cases involving airbags. One was a suit brought about by the family of a person who sued the airbag manufacturer because the driver hit a truck head on at over 90 mph and died. The airbad deployed, but didn't prevent the traumatic injury. There are certain parameters these cars and systems are engineered to withstand, track use most likely isn't in that set.

    I don't like the price of the Simpson Hybrid either, Moti is right about the pricing.
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