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Thread: SoCal SuperMiata thread

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    I thought the point of the various power rules were to prevent built for power engines. Would the above mentioned stroker motor pass a dyno test?

    Well yes, for me to get my car to SPM spec and keep the parts for PT racing would cost around $3k - engine, Torsen, stand-alone ECU, dyno time. I also need a new SA10 helmet and my harnesses are now past date. At least I have the tires.
    Show up with the dyno sheet Eric.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    MSM BP5A-12-420 cam works in BP4W (NB1). It can also be adapted to the BP05 (NA8) head with the solid lifters and valve retainers from the NB.

    I can see where this is going. Everyone wants to run the engine they already have. That's fine but if it is not a bone stock engine, you must show up at your first SPM race with a current dyno sheet, no exceptions.
    no. I don't have an engine with MSM cam. just thought MSM cam is cheap, and was hoping it work in na8, then I would be able to get Patch up to 140whp, probably with lot less work.
    with NB1, may be just MSM cam, CAI, exhaust will get close to 140whp. it would be advantageous not to run standalone ECU.
    another reason is availability of junkyard MSM engines.......which is BP4W with MSM cam.
    just thinking out loud.....
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 10-03-2013 at 09:18 PM.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    I thought the point of the various power rules were to prevent built for power engines. Would the above mentioned stroker motor pass a dyno test?

    Well yes, for me to get my car to SPM spec and keep the parts for PT racing would cost around $3k - engine, Torsen, stand-alone ECU, dyno time. I also need a new SA10 helmet and my harnesses are now past date. At least I have the tires.
    just run your existing motor. you are capped at 145whp for PTE anyway. worst case, run a little restrictor plate.....
    rule is for when the day your engine is tired....you will still make 140whp.....Alex's tired 160psi engine just made 139whp....
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  4. #304
    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    Well yes, for me to get my car to SPM spec and keep the parts for PT racing would cost around $3k - engine, Torsen, stand-alone ECU, dyno time. I also need a new SA10 helmet and my harnesses are now past date. At least I have the tires.
    Don't feel bad, for me it's $4,500 plus HANS.

    I don't see what the big hooplah is about for allowing a slightly broader range or things done to the motor. The power restrictions are there, making building an expensive engine to get a competetive advantage futile. If a car has fancy part X in the egine but meets the HP cap and area under the curve cap, then that part isn't giving them any advantage over the guy with the junkyard motor who is meeting those same caps. And I say this as someone who wouldn't ever run anything but stock internals..

    -Ryan
    Last edited by thepass; 10-03-2013 at 11:48 PM.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    May be a grandfathered clause ? Bring whatever you got as long it meets the power cap. But if your engine goes kaboom, you must replace it with junkyard engine or whatever it is.
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    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    SPM is going to single-handedly be responsible for a shortage of BP4Ws in California. Much like 949 is single handedly responsible for the shortage of 6 speeds...

    I just realized, I'm excited about every aspect of 949's change of focus away from NASA... except for one really dissapointing thing: I've missed my chance to crew for them at T25. Sad panda. Very sad.

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    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    May be a grandfathered clause ? Bring whatever you got as long it meets the power cap. But if your engine goes kaboom, you must replace it with junkyard engine or whatever it is.
    I like this idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    That's fine but if it is not a bone stock engine, you must show up at your first SPM race with a current dyno sheet, no exceptions.
    I fully support that.
    Theseus: '94 Miata, NASA SU/TTU (in progress)
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    How hard is it to have the dyno sheet show exactly what you want it to show? Wouldn't people be motivated to provide low results? Probably just counterintuitive for me as I am used to going to the dyno to ring out every lost drop in power. Dynos are useful in helping guys tune. But to use them as comparisons to others cars, they are not as useful. Especially if those sessions are not monitored and conducted identically to each other.

    For instance, On a superflow chassis dyno I make around 112hp in SM trim. Guys familiar with Sm now that number would never fly at the front and isn't the number we have when compared to the dynos most are using. I can also game the dyno by giving my dyno guy a different wheel measurement. The guys at the dyno will do anything I ask of them as I am paying them to do so. And so on and so on.

    Just saying is all. Racers are a crafty bunch of guys. At any and every level.

  10. #310
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    How hard is it to have the dyno sheet show exactly what you want it to show? Wouldn't people be motivated to provide low results? Probably just counterintuitive for me as I am used to going to the dyno to ring out every lost drop in power. Dynos are useful in helping guys tune. But to use them as comparisons to others cars, they are not as useful. Especially if those sessions are not monitored and conducted identically to each other.

    For instance, On a superflow chassis dyno I make around 112hp in SM trim. Guys familiar with Sm now that number would never fly at the front and isn't the number we have when compared to the dynos most are using. I can also game the dyno by giving my dyno guy a different wheel measurement. The guys at the dyno will do anything I ask of them as I am paying them to do so. And so on and so on.

    Just saying is all. Racers are a crafty bunch of guys. At any and every level.
    1. I think somewhere in the rule talks about standardize on Dynojet ? basically what NASA mandates. I would go one step further, and standardize on 7s Only dyno.....
    2. don't forget this is Miata only field with similar power and weight. not like PTE, where Saturn and Miata races in the same class and have different weight and power....it is much easier to catch someone with say just 5 extra whp.
    3. SuperMiata does inverted field....so say you win this race, you gonna starts in the back for the next........
    4. eventually racing will get serious, we will deal with it then, just like every other racing organization.....headache, but I believe is less of a headache than say PT/ST (also power to weight, but way too many variations) or SM (no dyno).
    5. heck, if someone is willing to do that to win a $2 trophy. he better buy beer for everyone at BBQ....just saying....winning might cost you....
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 10-04-2013 at 12:47 PM.
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    How hard is it to have the dyno sheet show exactly what you want it to show? Wouldn't people be motivated to provide low results? Probably just counterintuitive for me as I am used to going to the dyno to ring out every lost drop in power. Dynos are useful in helping guys tune. But to use them as comparisons to others cars, they are not as useful. Especially if those sessions are not monitored and conducted identically to each other.

    For instance, On a superflow chassis dyno I make around 112hp in SM trim. Guys familiar with Sm now that number would never fly at the front and isn't the number we have when compared to the dynos most are using. I can also game the dyno by giving my dyno guy a different wheel measurement. The guys at the dyno will do anything I ask of them as I am paying them to do so. And so on and so on.

    Just saying is all. Racers are a crafty bunch of guys. At any and every level.
    Rhetoric.

    You might take a moment to read our rules. SuperMiata Rules & Regulations | SuperMiata – Miata Challenge
    Dynojet 248/288. Ultimately, humans will cheat. The more there is to gain, the more clever and deceitful we get. Remove some of the incentive to cheat and you have less cheating.

    As an SM competitor, you're probably not familiar with dyno classing like several NASA classes have. It's actually quite effective and there is almost no cheating. You don't have to in order to win. In contrast, SM has no power cap and well, history speaks for itself WRT to the "creativity" of rules interpretation in SM.

    Look at how many classes get torn down at SCCA Runoffs every year. Pretty much just SM. Right down to the engine bearings.. no power cap.
    WWW.949RACING.COM
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    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    5. heck, if someone is willing to do that to win a $2 trophy. he better buy beer for everyone at BBQ....just saying....winning might cost you....
    I'm adding that to the rule set.
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Rhetoric.

    You might take a moment to read our rules. SuperMiata Rules & Regulations | SuperMiata – Miata Challenge
    Dynojet 248/288. Ultimately, humans will cheat. The more there is to gain, the more clever and deceitful we get. Remove some of the incentive to cheat and you have less cheating.

    As an SM competitor, you're probably not familiar with dyno classing like several NASA classes have. It's actually quite effective and there is almost no cheating. You don't have to in order to win. In contrast, SM has no power cap and well, history speaks for itself WRT to the "creativity" of rules interpretation in SM.

    Look at how many classes get torn down at SCCA Runoffs every year. Pretty much just SM. Right down to the engine bearings.. no power cap.
    Cheating the dyno is very doable. The importance of engine tear downs a function of how competitive the class is and how much additional power helps. In SM, power is a really big deal. On dirt with a spec tire, not so much.

  14. #314
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Will race for beer
    SuperMiata


    T shirts?
    bawareca and Ham like this.
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    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    How hard is it to have the dyno sheet show exactly what you want it to show? Wouldn't people be motivated to provide low results? Probably just counterintuitive for me as I am used to going to the dyno to ring out every lost drop in power. Dynos are useful in helping guys tune. But to use them as comparisons to others cars, they are not as useful. Especially if those sessions are not monitored and conducted identically to each other.

    For instance, On a superflow chassis dyno I make around 112hp in SM trim. Guys familiar with Sm now that number would never fly at the front and isn't the number we have when compared to the dynos most are using. I can also game the dyno by giving my dyno guy a different wheel measurement. The guys at the dyno will do anything I ask of them as I am paying them to do so. And so on and so on.

    Just saying is all. Racers are a crafty bunch of guys. At any and every level.
    Your opinion mostly stems from your lack of understanding of how various types of dynos work and the differences between them. It's not possible to make a Dynojet "read low".
    Theseus: '94 Miata, NASA SU/TTU (in progress)
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    I'm adding that to the rule set.
    I predict that this next racing season is going to be hard on the 949 beer budget.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Savington View Post
    It's not possible to make a Dynojet "read low".
    Think harder

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    Quote Originally Posted by Savington View Post
    Your opinion mostly stems from your lack of understanding of how various types of dynos work and the differences between them. It's not possible to make a Dynojet "read low".
    Yeah right.

    Good news everyone. Tire inflation no longer matters when doing pulls. Tell your dyno guy that he doesn't need your wheel size. Running loose belts and pulleys is irrelevent. You don't have to ensure your engine is warm and at same temp between pulls. Atmospherics don't matter and no need to do multiple pulls and use averages. This has just made my dyno program so much cheaper, faster and easier not having to manage all these things. Thanks magic dynojet!

    So all the experts that tell us how important this stuff is are full of ****e?

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    And the things I listed above are just the good practices to ensure your numbers are the most accurate they can be. Thus isn't all the things I could do to reduce the accurate read the dyno is seeing artificially. Like rob said, think harder.

  20. #320
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    And the things I listed above are just the good practices to ensure your numbers are the most accurate they can be. Thus isn't all the things I could do to reduce the accurate read the dyno is seeing artificially. Like rob said, think harder.
    My guess is you have not run NASA Performance Touring or Super Touring competitively where dynojets are used very effectively.

    No one is arguing that it is not possible to cheat. That is not the issue. The point of us using a dynojet to cap power is that it costs less for the competitor that wishes to remain compliant.
    There are far more racers that want to be legal than otherwise. With no power cap, they simply spend more and more trying to find another 2whp. With SPM, they don't.

    So, please do continue discussing how easy it is to cheat. Coming from someone representing Spec Miata, that is a bit ironic and I'm finding it quite amusing.
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    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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