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Thread: SoCal SuperMiata thread

  1. #221
    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    15x8s for now only because the wider RC-1 isn't available yet. Switch to 15x9 when it's possible. 6ULs hold their value, wouldn't be any trouble selling the 15x8s off for those so inclined, and most of us already have 15x9s that would be sitting around anyways. Difference in tire cost between the two sizes will be marginal, especially considering how great the RC-1's wear according to current reports.

    Not everyone finds racing in an anemic Spec Miata-paced car appealing. SMs are dirt cheap too, that's already been done. Make it feel too much like a Spec Miata and it's going to struggle to gain momentum. There's a core group here who have been around the block a lot and have found that above all else they just want cheap, fun racing. Get too single-minded with that focus though and it will remain just a group of a couple friends who have come to that conclusion. I said it earlier and had a lot of others back it up with agreeing comments, SPMs should be properly quick. Make them the cars that guys look at and say "now THAT is a miata I would actually want to drive", and it will be unlike any of the other series out there currently. I've spoken to more than one SM racer who would love to switch to a series that had the same close racing but had a much more exciting version of the miata.

    The vision of Supermiata has clearly changed over time. Take the APR wings as proof - they were all branded Supermiata parts, and now they aren't even being considered. Don't neuter it down completely, hunting for the lowest budget possible, find a balance.

    -Ryan
    Last edited by thepass; 09-15-2013 at 03:25 PM.
    Ryan Passey
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepass View Post
    15x8s for now only because the wider RC-1 isn't available yet. Switch to 15x9 when it's possible. 6ULs hold their value, wouldn't be any trouble selling the 15x8s off for those so inclined, and most of us already have 15x9s that would be sitting around anyways. Difference in tire cost between the two sizes will be marginal, especially considering how great the RC-1's wear according to current reports.

    Not everyone finds racing in an anemic Spec Miata-paced car appealing. SMs are dirt cheap too, that's already been done. Make it feel too much like a Spec Miata and it's going to struggle to gain momentum. There's a core group here who have been around the block a lot and have found that above all else they just want cheap, fun racing. Get too single-minded with that focus though and it will remain just a group of a couple friends who have come to that conclusion. I said it earlier and had a lot of others back it up with agreeing comments, SPMs should be properly quick. Make them the cars that guys look at and say "now THAT is a miata I would actually want to drive", and it will be unlike any of the other series out there currently. I've spoken to more than one SM racer who would love to switch to a series that had the same close racing but had a much more exciting version of the miata.

    The vision of Supermiata has clearly changed over time. Take the APR wings as proof - they were all branded Supermiata parts, and now they aren't even being considered. Don't neuter it down completely, hunting for the lowest budget possible, find a balance.

    -Ryan
    OK.

    Please post the maximum you personally would be willing to spend to build a car from the ground up, assuming your resources and skills. This does not include the car you own or any parts you already have. From scratch or you can buy someone elses donor to start with.

    Those of us who have done 50+ w2w hrs in Miatas are pretty unanimously convinced that it is not about the car, but close, cheap racing.
    I suspect that after a year or two of spending what amounts to $2000 per weekend chasing after PT wins your perspective might more closely match mine.
    SPM changed because it had to.

    As sure as the sun will rise tomorrow I can guarantee you a direct and linear correlation with build/consumables cost and reduced participation. As soon as we have a $20k+ car we are back to square one with PT. PT has weak attendance and it is not because the cars are not cool. Sonny's PTD car is basically the sexy Miata everyone asking for "moar" wants. Got $20K? Because that's what it will cost from scratch, at minimum.

    Reality: No one that can afford to build a sexy $20k+ SPM from scratch is going to choose that over an existing class in SCCA, POC, NASA, BMWCCA.
    Sexy Miata class already exists and drivers stay away in droves. Why would SPM be any different?

    We will be at least as fast as Spec Miata lap records in a car that's more fun to drive, about 1/3 the cost to build from scratch and about 1/3 the consumables cost. I think that is an excellent balance.
    If SPM isn't cheaper than PT or SM, then what's the point?

    No one reading this wants APR GT250 wings, 170whp, 2.0L engines, splitters, OS Gikens and 2150# comp weights more than I do. Trust me on this. I make my living selling those parts. This desire for a badass Miata is tempered by the harsh reality that you, and everyone else wants to have safe, close racing for as close to free as possible. The "free" part I can't fix but close, safe part I have covered.

    Those here that whine about boring, slow cars will have just wait and see. I think the videos I posted earlier adequately demonstrate that the current formula 16.0 lbs/hp DIY aero formula and OEM diffs works just fine. Those drivers all had a blast and I can guarantee you they were not thinking, "Boy if everyone here just spent another $10k to build their car we would have twice as much fun!"

    Which reminds me, Sonny's car is for sale. Demonstrably the fastest PTD car in the country.

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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

  3. #223
    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    ^^Yep, cheap is good. PT is expensive if you want to be up front. I had several fun weekends battling mid pack with Anthony and Randy Miller. One weekend was fun with Gian and Gordon last year but I was never battling for first. Sure lots of that is my poor driving but at least a little was not being able to afford Hoosiers.

    If we can have a core group and we have close racing, others will come. Having close racing is what it's really about. If people don't want to race our class because we don't have wings, then they aren't the people I want to race with anyway. They don't get it.

    My whole reason for wanting to keep my OSG is just so I don't have to spend more money. Same with my Rebello engine. If racing is a financial burden, it isn't fun.
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    ^^Yep, cheap is good. PT is expensive if you want to be up front. I had several fun weekends battling mid pack with Anthony and Randy Miller. One weekend was fun with Gian and Gordon last year but I was never battling for first. Sure lots of that is my poor driving but at least a little was not being able to afford Hoosiers.

    If we can have a core group and we have close racing, others will come. Having close racing is what it's really about. If people don't want to race our class because we don't have wings, then they aren't the people I want to race with anyway. They don't get it.

    My whole reason for wanting to keep my OSG is just so I don't have to spend more money. Same with my Rebello engine. If racing is a financial burden, it isn't fun.
    I'm struggling a bit with some method to eliminate any advantage of expensive parts but still create some sort of transition for those that already have them. I think everyone agrees that for at least the remainder of 2013 we allow any 90-05 Miata and just figure out some sort of handicap on race day. For 2014 points/schwag however, we will need rules in place that send a clear message to anyone that is not reading this thread "These cars are cheap to build, fun to race and safe".

    Engines should be easy to cap. It involves a few pulls on 7's Only dynojet, your air filter and an official roll of non-residue duct tape. Even Andrew's full race motor can be easily detuned or restricted to meet the cap.

    The tricky one is transmissions, lower FD's and OSG's already in cars. Maybe we just pull hp for each mod?

    -5whp Any FD lower than 4.3
    -5whp 6 speed
    -5whp Any non OEM differential

    The moment that any new part or modification that isn't basically free becomes a "must have" advantage, it will be banned. SPM is about the drivers and racecraft, not the cars. Plain and simple.
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    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

  5. #225
    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    Small hp penalty for the other common transmission/diff setups makes sense and should equalize the playing field. I take it that instead of a peak hp cap like -5hp, if you adopt the idea of taking the total hp under the 5k-7k curve, then the penalty would be on that total number, not on just the peak number?

    I like the idea of a total maximum of the sum of hp across 500rpm increments. That should make for really equal cars.



    -Ryan
    Last edited by thepass; 09-15-2013 at 06:24 PM.
    Ryan Passey
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    "The sport dedicating to the spirits of time attacking motoring" -Emilio

  6. #226
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepass View Post
    Small hp penalty for the other common transmission/diff setups makes sense and should equalize the playing field. I take it that instead of a peak hp cap like -5hp, if you adopt the idea of taking the total hp under the 5k-7k curve, then the penalty would be on that total number, not on just the peak number?

    I like the idea of a total maximum of the sum of hp across 500rpm increments. That should make for really equal cars.
    Probably peak.


    I'm picking up a grip o' 205/50/15 RC-1's from Maxxis warehouse in Rancho Cucamonga Monday Sept 16th. 40 as of now.
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    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

  7. #227
    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    Excited about the RC-1.

    Just for the record, the points I have been bringing up haven't been motivated by trying to make my own personal transition any easier, I've just been trying to look at what elements might help the series to become really successful, which I'd love to see.

    The one point that I do personally feel strongly about and that would affect my own build is brakes; if there's a small hp penalty for having aluminum calipers, I'd gladly pay that to have the peace of mind, better pad wear, etc. We just took the brakes off Creampuff and they look positively cooked, some of the metal hardware/clips had split apart, etc. That's just 15-20 minutes max at a time, with small cool-downs on throw-away laps, etc. Andrew says he's resorted to $75/qt brake fluid as a band-aid to keep his brakes consistent throughout a race. A small penalty for bigger brakes makes it an option for those who would like it, without becoming a must-have for those who don't.
    Ryan Passey
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    "The sport dedicating to the spirits of time attacking motoring" -Emilio

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepass View Post
    Excited about the RC-1.

    Just for the record, the points I have been bringing up haven't been motivated by trying to make my own personal transition any easier, I've just been trying to look at what elements might help the series to become really successful, which I'd love to see.

    The one point that I do personally feel strongly about and that would affect my own build is brakes; if there's a small hp penalty for having aluminum calipers, I'd gladly pay that to have the peace of mind, better pad wear, etc. We just took the brakes off Creampuff and they look positively cooked, some of the metal hardware/clips had split apart, etc. That's just 15-20 minutes max at a time, with small cool-downs on throw-away laps, etc. Andrew says he's resorted to $75/qt brake fluid as a band-aid to keep his brakes consistent throughout a race. A small penalty for bigger brakes makes it an option for those who would like it, without becoming a must-have for those who don't.
    Andrew is using tiny NA6 brakes, roughly half the swept area of OEM Sport brakes. Thus the carnage. The OEM Sport brakes on our T25 winning cars seem to hold up just fine on regular Motul RBF600, Centric blanks, XP10's and generic brake ducts. Moti's brake hardware probably has what 30-50hrs on it since being installed? Your car is probably capable of 1:55's at BW13CW with 205 SM6's. For your car, Wilwoods are a good idea. For SPM, OEM NA8 or Sport brakes will work just fine, trust me.

    Least expensive Wilwood kit that will actually survive w2w is the $600 kit at minimum and that's with the Wilwood econo rotors that don't last as long as centrics on Sport brakes. Front Sport brake hardware, about $190 with reman calipers. $110 if you have returnable cores.Rear NA8 is fine. 190<600
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

  9. #229
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post

    My whole reason for wanting to keep my OSG is just so I don't have to spend more money. Same with my Rebello engine. If racing is a financial burden, it isn't fun.
    I will be glad to go to your house. Remove osg and install a torsen for you. And buy you a case of good beer.
    As for Rebello. Waiting till next year when SPM rule are set. It either blew up already or sell it for good money
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  10. #230
    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    I will be glad to go to your house. Remove osg and install a torsen for you. And buy you a case of good beer.
    As for Rebello. Waiting till next year when SPM rule are set. It either blew up already or sell it for good money
    I have a half hatched plan to get a 4.30 Torsen, we'll see how it plays out. I'm going to want to hang on to my OSG even after I remove it. You're more than welcome to come up and help do the swap when the time comes.

    I hope I'm not coming across as complaining, that's not my intention. I'm very excited about this even if I don't make any events in 2013.
    99 Mazda Miata SuperMiata #515 - AKA Sparky SOLD
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Moti's brake hardware probably has what 30-50hrs on it since being installed?
    Ryan, these are the pads we installed at the track in BRP last year in the September event.
    I wish every one of your brake pads for the rest of your life will look as good as mine did after a YEAR worth of track time, and remember that I run almost always both days in every event.

    And speaking of which, I better get on the website right now to order another set, someone's gonna pick'em up tomorrow morning

    Emilio, any word on the suggestion regarding capping the tires?
    William suggested he's going to run on one set the entire year, I don't even know if that's possible, but ultimately there's a big cost item here that can (and should) be regulated.
    If it's important enough to be capped in the most professional forms of road racing, it won't hurt the SPMers.

  12. #232
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbird View Post
    William suggested he's going to run on one set the entire year, I don't even know if that's possible, ..
    I am confident it will last longer than NT01, not by much though.
    more likely most of us will run ~6-8 races per year, which I think is doable. of course, that's not counting flat spotted ones.....I currently have ABS on Nemo, so I don't know what flat spotting is !!
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  13. #233
    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    ABS is outlawed since it's not mentioned in the rules draft?

    I'm curious, I know it's early but is there any thought towards doing an SPM enduro down the road?

    -Ryan
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    Senior Member granth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepass View Post
    ABS is outlawed since it's not mentioned in the rules draft?
    plus one rip out the ABS, or take a 10hp hit and leave it on

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    You guyz are so fun to watch . . .
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  16. #236
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepass View Post
    ABS is outlawed since it's not mentioned in the rules draft?

    I'm curious, I know it's early but is there any thought towards doing an SPM enduro down the road?

    -Ryan
    Aaron and I have talked about enduros. He's in. Just have to get a decent sized field.

    ABS will be allowed. Worked some more on the regs today (instead of riding my KTM which I really want to do).
    Hoping to have something workable by the end of the week. Until then, the BRP event is open to any Miata 90-13. Yes that includes the NC.
    I have plenty of duct tape. mua ah ah

    Not sure how to control tires. I think 4 races minimum per set is good. Unless they last longer. Maybe we have someone from SV stamp or sign the tires with the date of each race. Ideas?
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    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Great news about the enduros and the inclusion of the NC as I requested

    Tires should be stamped (and numbered?).
    4 races means 2 weekends of 2 days, so I'd imagine we'd want them to last longer than that if possible, because assuming 8 weekends a year it's still 4 sets which is a whopping 400% more than William plans to do or at least 1-2 sets more than is probably necessary - most guys seem to run through 2 sets of NT01s per season, 3 if pushing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard EVO View Post
    This rule will guarantee sandbagging . . .
    . . . and fender banging.

  19. #239
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    I thought there was a talk of 1 race day (with 1-2 races) per weekend (at least for some of the races). it really helps with cost, and helps with those with family.

    I don't think it is gonna be 8 2-races weekends.....that's 16 days...SCCA / NASA don't have that many, not even close....


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbird View Post
    4 races means 2 weekends of 2 days, so I'd imagine we'd want them to last longer than that if possible, because assuming 8 weekends a year it's still 4 sets which is a whopping 400% more than William plans to do or at least 1-2 sets more than is probably necessary - most guys seem to run through 2 sets of NT01s per season, 3 if pushing it.
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 09-16-2013 at 09:47 AM.
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    I personally prefer going to the track for a two day event over one day unless it's the drive to the track is under 2 hours.
    Getting everything ready to go to the track, loading all the tools, parts etc. and unloading takes so much time and effort, the tow vehicle gas costs the same whether I'm doing one or two days.
    At the end of the process, the difference between doing two days or one comes down to registration (under $200 normally), gas for the car ($50-ish?) and hotel ($60-ish?) for those who don't stay at the track, so about $300 for another day or less if you stay at the track.

    Maybe a good compromise will be to do one day if we're running at the local tracks (WSIR, ACS and maybe BRP) and two days if we're running at CVR, MRLS, SMMP, THL and Sonoma.
    What do you guys think?

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