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Thread: SoCal SuperMiata thread

  1. #201
    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    I can't find the specific post right now but IIRC I read that for cross-series compatibility, you'll be allowed to take a car built for PTE that's been cleared by NASA to be ran there and run it for SPM given that you make whatever tweaks are necessary to meet the hp and weight restrictions of SPM and run the correct tires. If that's the case, you can just build the car how you want to within PTE restrictions, and then bring it over to SPM, circumventing the stricter build rules of SPM. And if THAT is the case, then why specifically outlaw some of the things that future competitors would like to run if they are just building a car for SPM and not NASA? Assign a hp penalty (i.e. for AL brake calipers your HP under the curve total drops 15hp, so you're allowed 630 instead of 645 total), and you've allowed some flexibility to attract the most amount of prospective participants without sacrificing any of the spirit of hacing equally matched cars.

    -Ryan
    Last edited by thepass; 09-14-2013 at 10:10 PM.
    Ryan Passey
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  2. #202
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    You're probably referring to one of my posts from page 5 in this thread.
    Brakes aren't a free mod in NASA PT either, on the same token you may add a sequential trans, that is allowed too.

  3. #203
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Final Drive and differential
    I didn't know the 4.77's were so cheap and easy to get. The reality is a 4.3 costs more from any current source and 4.3 Torsens are getting harder to find. Mots drivers will have to piece one together from a ubiquitous 4.1 Type I torsen and 4.3 open from a 5 speed NB. By the time they have done that, they could have just put a 4.77 in and probably done it cheaper. So logically, we leave FD open or maybe cap it at 4.77 max.

    That leaves the diff. We all know an OSG is worth a minimum of .25s and as much as 1s on some tracks. So how do we equalize? That's a huge difference. The 6 speed is about the same advantage over a 5 speed, .25s on some tracks, almost 1s on other configs.
    If everyone is OK with it, we make room for the OSG's by limiting them to 5 speeds as Andrew suggested. 6 spds allowed but only with 4.3 and Torsen. Does that work for everyone?
    by allowing the above, it means you must either have OSG (with 5 speed) - $$$ , or you must have 6 speed - also $$$.

    I strongly oppose:
    1. OS Giken - too expensive. and is an advantage.
    2. 6 speed. too expensive and are flaky (it is a crap shoot to get a good 6 speed, whereas 5 speed always shifts well and cheap)
    3. 4.77 Torsen - it IS an advantage. it is not as cheap as a 4.3 Torsen, because I can buy a 4.3 Torsen as a complete unit. you can't do that with 4.77. I would have to pay a shop to install the gears and torsen, plus all the seals then add labor. it isn't cheap. many of our cars or candidates already have 4.3 Torsen. it is effectively forcing everybody to switch over (because it is an advantage). you are also assuming Kia gears will still be available 3 years from now.
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 09-14-2013 at 10:24 PM.
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    Señor Member b3d3g1's Avatar
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    ^^ I agree. Keep it simple and cheap. As many miata parts as possible with simple improvements for performance and fun.
    -Anthony
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    crusher has been converted back to super miata spec. I am on my way to the dyno right now to detune it to140whp.
    I will be driving super.so crusher is available if anyone wants to rent it.
    What is the cost for a rental? Is that something we'd need to contact you directly on?

    Also I agree that the big brakes and os giken are things that should not be allowed. I've driven Miatas with BBK and there is a definite advantage, keep it simple with stock parts they are more than adequate for the set up of these cars.
    Last edited by Lincoln Logs; 09-14-2013 at 10:46 PM.

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    I promise that any benefit you can personally feel from a BBK is not translating to a time advantage on the track. If you can reliably tell the difference between two cars where one has 12lbs less unsprung weight on the front end, you should quit club racing and get a job as a factory test driver.
    Theseus: '94 Miata, NASA SU/TTU (in progress)
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  7. #207
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    William, the difference between buying a 4.3 LSD and making a 4.77 LSD is roughly $200, not too bad.
    I agree with you about adding the cost of the OSG in, so how about allowing only OEM Torsens and limit 6 speed users to ratios up to 4.3 and 5 speed users to ratios up to 4.77?

    As a real measure of cost control, how about limiting the amount of tires that a competitor may use per season?
    This will prevent the racers with the deeper pockets from outspending the competition by having fresh rubber all the time.
    This is a real cost issue and of the worst ones...

  8. #208
    Senior Member granth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbird View Post
    Excuse my ignorance here, but since we've already done it before in CVR, can't we just do it the same way again?
    had to run three timing systems because SV ran out of transponders, what a hassle....
    Blackbird likes this.

  9. #209
    Senior Member granth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b3d3g1 View Post
    ^^ I agree. Keep it simple and cheap. As many miata parts as possible with simple improvements for performance and fun.
    Keep it simple and cheap Keep it simple and cheap Keep it simple cheap

    Max 2/3 sets of tires per year no more period, if the new tire last longer than an Nt01 no problem right

    Keep it simple and cheap Keep it simple and cheap Keep it simple cheap

  10. #210
    Señor Member b3d3g1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by granth View Post
    Max 2/3 sets of tires per year no more period
    how do you race on 2/3 of a set of tires?

    Be realistic, not everyone is going to have a devoted set of wheels and tires for SPM events only.
    -Anthony
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  11. #211
    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    I believe he meant two or three sets per season max, not two-thirds of one set I am all for 2 sets per season. I don't have personal experience with the RC-1 to know if that is do-able, but would be glorious to not be worried that if I didn't keep buying new tires when mine were half way done I'd have no chance because the other guy with more money was going to bring fresh stickers to every event...

    I'm resistant to some of the restrictions, especially if you could theoretically build a car for PT and carry it over to SPM with parts that you wouldn't be allowed to use if you built/used the car strictly for SPM. That said, overall I'm really excited about the prospect of having a generally reliable, simple car that I can wheel-to-wheel with with you guys and that I don't have to focus a bunch of money on buying fancy parts for. I just don't find Spec Miatas appealing

    Quote Originally Posted by Lincoln Logs View Post
    I've driven Miatas with BBK and there is a definite advantage, keep it simple with stock parts they are more than adequate for the set up of these cars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Savington View Post
    I promise that any benefit you can personally feel from a BBK is not translating to a time advantage on the track. If you can reliably tell the difference between two cars where one has 12lbs less unsprung weight on the front end, you should quit club racing and get a job as a factory test driver.
    Agree with Andrew here. I think the difference you felt when driving my car was the difference in pad (DTC-60's on my car).
    Last edited by thepass; 09-15-2013 at 12:54 AM.
    Ryan Passey
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  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbird View Post
    William, the difference between buying a 4.3 LSD and making a 4.77 LSD is roughly $200, not too bad.
    I agree with you about adding the cost of the OSG in, so how about allowing only OEM Torsens and limit 6 speed users to ratios up to 4.3 and 5 speed users to ratios up to 4.77?
    Why bother, then? The 6-speed+4.30 combo will be significantly faster. No reason to allow 4.77s if you don't allow the OSG with them. The 6sp+4.30 cars maintain more revs on corner exit (less speed in gear) and have shorter drops between gear (higher average RPM). The OSG bridges that gap. I still think the 6sp+4.30 cars will be faster, BTW.

    The goal with the OSG+4.77s is to draw cars from other series. Competitive PTE cars run 4.77+OSG+5sp. Thus it makes sense to allow it, if we can find a way to equalize the speed for a relatively smaller amount of money.

    6-speeds are fun. A bunch of us did them of our own free will (Rover before PTE, Emilio's OGK, I think Eric Green had one, Moti has one, doesn't Tetanus have one?). They're a great way to add a fair of speed for a relatively small amount of money (I promise the $600 6-speed makes a bigger lap time dent than the $400 header does).

    The fact that the 6sp+4.30 is faster will dissuade people from spending the big dollars on the OSG, but it allows those of us who have them to use them without having to build a separate diff for SPM and constantly swap them to remain legal and competitive in both classes.

    In general here, the mantra I support is to write the rules to encourage people to build a very specific car while still allowing people with similar cars built for other classes to cross over into SPM.

    As a real measure of cost control, how about limiting the amount of tires that a competitor may use per season?
    This will prevent the racers with the deeper pockets from outspending the competition by having fresh rubber all the time.
    This is a real cost issue and of the worst ones...
    Good idea in theory. In reality, Anthony is right - nobody will have a dedicated set of wheels for SPM RC-1s.
    Last edited by Savington; 09-15-2013 at 01:11 AM.
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  13. #213
    Senior Member granth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b3d3g1 View Post
    how do you race on 2/3 of a set of tires?

    Be realistic, not everyone is going to have a devoted set of wheels and tires for SPM events only.
    C'mon how hard is it to have ONE set of wheels for SPM, I would bet a certain Miata racing company could gets us all a "Racers/SPM rate" like the tires on some 6ul's wheels. Are you too lazy to change the wheels at the track ;-) Do you have a set of wheels/tires on hand for rain? Or do you run around the day before the event looking for wheels tires to run in the rain.

    The whole idea is to limit the amount of tires needed for the year, hence Simple/Cheap.

    You would have a one time cost for wheels seems like a no brainier to me....
    Last edited by granth; 09-15-2013 at 03:37 AM.

  14. #214
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Tires represent the single largest running cost.
    Just to work with round numbers, if we have 10 weekends per season, and each set is $500 installed, you're talking about $5K in tires alone for those who can run on stickers every event.
    There is no way in the world that even half the guys can afford that, probably not even a 1/4.
    It will make sense for those who don't have an extra set of wheels (myself included, I don't have any 8's) to just buy a set as it is FAR cheaper than 10 sets of tires...

    I think 3 sets per season plus 1 tire allowance in case of damage.

  15. #215
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    No 6 speed. Why ? See Emilio's warehouse: he has more than 10 broken 6 speed sitting there. That's over $7k.

    As for 4.77 in PTE cross over. If you guys just stop publicizing it !!! I bet there are less than 3 E Miata in the country with the combo (not counting ones here). Again. You guys are assuming Kia gears will be available 3 years from now. You are also forcing 90% of us here to switch over to 4.77. Everybody here have 4.3 Torsen. Most do not have 4.77. And I guarantee 4.77 is significantly faster (I just publicized it again, damn)
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 09-15-2013 at 10:27 AM.
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  16. #216
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    I've seen how long those RC1 lasts. Honestly, I plan only buy 1 set of tire the whole season !!
    Okay may by a couple extra for those flat spotted tires
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    ^^ Not to mention, not everyone knows how to install a ring gear. I sure don't so that's extra money. If needed and if I can find one, I could probably pull my OSG with Ring and pinion but that's not that hard I hear.
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  18. #218
    Senior Member granth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    I've seen how long those RC1 lasts. Honestly, I plan only buy 1 set of tire the whole season !!
    Okay may by a couple extra for those flat spotted tires
    great is everyone up for that? 2 sets all year? Simple/Cheap, Simple/Cheap, Simple/Cheap, Simple/Cheap, Simple/Cheap

  19. #219
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    PTE/PTD cars in Cali with OSG and /or 4.77+

    Andrew
    Eric
    Glen
    Me - converted back to 4.3 Torsen
    William - converted back to 4.3 Torsen
    Sonny - converted back to 4.3 Torsen

    That's it.
    The rest of the mythical PT crossover drivers with 4.77's and OSG's don't actually exist and probably never will. Keep in mind
    that as long as Andrew is running PTE, everyone else is racing for a very distant second. Those that haven't figured it out, soon will. I suspect
    that situation will not do much to increase PTE field sizes.

    When I look through 2013 socal and norcal PT results for total number of PTE and PTD Miatas outside of the drivers already posting in this thread, it's about 7 drivers. A few of which I have good reason to believe, will never run an SPM race. I am not going to compromise SPM rules and add build costs just to woo those few drivers over. If they want in, they have to either build cars or sell some of the more expensive bits on their PT cars.

    In short, I am placing a bet that by capping costs from the outset, we will find drivers from a much broader pool that just PT. Think about it, if my sole purpose was to siphon off PT Miatas, I'd have failed before I started. There were 4 PTE Miatas at nationals. Four. The only reason this topic of PT crossover is even on the table is the 3-4 PT drivers already posting here who want in to SPM. Andrew already stated he won't build an SPM because of the low cost engine required. I won't allow $7000 motors in SPM. $7000 motors are precisely what SPM was created to avoid.

    5 speeds cost $100-$250 and are as common as houseflies
    6 speeds cost $600-900 and are .5 ~1s faster. Finding healthy used ones is becoming more and more difficult.

    Thus, no 6 speeds.
    Last edited by emilio700; 09-15-2013 at 11:49 AM.
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  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by granth View Post
    great is everyone up for that? 2 sets all year? Simple/Cheap, Simple/Cheap, Simple/Cheap, Simple/Cheap, Simple/Cheap
    I think keeping 15x8s would be a factor into the equation, wheels are cheaper and abundant and 205s are dirt cheap. I know there was some talk about running wider tires when they become available.

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