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Thread: SoCal SuperMiata thread

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimt View Post
    Nice.

    My point is race cars need to look like race cars. You've already got the guys interest who don't care what their race cars look like, current PTE and SM owners. You want to attract the other 75% of racers out there who already made a conscious decision to stay out of a hello kitty. My advice, try your best to hide the Miata under lots of race car looking parts.

    Seriously though, I've posted 3 times already tonite in thread. You got my attention.
    I feel you on this point, however, I do think limiting the aero is smart as that can be a slipery slope on cost. I know I've plunked down more than enough on the aero bits and I could spend more tweaking and improving things. For the sake of close racing it's best to leave it out or keep it simple with a duckbill trunk and EP front. That way it is a bit different yet keeping costs low.

    EDIT:

    I also wanted to make a comment on the comp weight. My street oriented build is already almost capable of meeting the minimum comp weight and it has barely had a weight reduction, so 2250 should be very doable with minimal effort.
    Last edited by Lincoln Logs; 09-13-2013 at 10:57 PM.

  2. #182
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimt View Post
    Nice.

    My point is race cars need to look like race cars. You've already got the guys interest who don't care what their race cars look like, current PTE and SM owners. You want to attract the other 75% of racers out there who already made a conscious decision to stay out of a hello kitty. My advice, try your best to hide the Miata under lots of race car looking parts.

    Seriously though, I've posted 3 times already tonite in thread. You got my attention.
    Another chicken or the egg kind of question. If we add the $1500 worth and 1hr extra on/off trailer loading time of aero you propose, we will lose some drivers and gain others. Question is do we gain more than we lose?
    Not to put too fine a point on it but I know Miata owners and racers better than just about anyone in this thread. It is my personal belief, not based on conjecture but empirical knowledge, that we will lose more than we gain.

    Do I want sexy aero? Desperately. It's on Crusher now and it stings to have to take it off. But by doing so, Grant, Anthony, Alex, William and Eric can run their cars competitively against mine without spending more than about $150 on HDM materials. For the time being, that is the direction, because it fits the mission statement. If the entire active drivers group votes in favor of sexy aero, we'll do it. Right now, every active driver does not want it. Only those outside the series that have no immediate plans to join want it.
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  3. #183
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Only those outside the series that have no immediate plans to join want it.
    ^ This, and that comes from me, which anyone that know me in person knows how much I love playing with aero.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Or are you just arguing the point because you are bored?
    Bingo!
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  5. #185
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    I was thinking about ways better handle classifying how much power a car makes than just peak values and the power to weight ratios and I came up with 2 ideas.

    1) Peak values don't mean much anymore with custom maps so what if we did an area under the curve calculation off a dyno sheet. Maybe start at 5000 rpm and pick the power level off the curve every 500 rpm till red line and then average all these numbers to come up with a total power average number. I think this would dramatically equalize cars except for at a track like ACS which is all about HP. I feel a tuned car with a negative torque curve and flat power curve at 130 might be pretty equal to a car with a normal tune around 140 or 145 at the peak.

    2) Then, since the weight-to-power ratio is not linear with performance, have cars that are 2100-2200 have a 16.5 lb/hp, 2200-2300 get 16 lb/hp, and 2300+ have a 15.8 lb/hp. All these numbers would need to be adjusted to something that actually made sense but I don't think that would be too hard to figure out.

    I'm still having a hard time seeing how the restrictor plates will actually be used. Will it be someone making too much power on the dyno or someone who is turning too fast of lap times and get a penalty from Emilio or an assigned committee?
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    Anyone have an extra stock BP4W laying around they want to sell? Or a '01+ bottom end and BP4W head? 4.30 Torsen?
    Last edited by Red_5; 09-14-2013 at 12:40 PM.
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  7. #187
    Senior Member granth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    do i want sexy aero? Desperately. It's on crusher now and it stings to have to take it off. But by doing so, grant, anthony, alex, william and eric can run their cars competitively against mine without spending more than about $150 on hdm materials. For the time being, that is the direction, because it fits the mission statement. If the entire active drivers group votes in favor of sexy aero, we'll do it. Right now, every active driver does not want it. Only those outside the series that have no immediate plans to join want it.
    plus one....please no big ass fancy wings. Mechanical grip only...
    Last edited by granth; 09-14-2013 at 12:25 PM.

  8. #188
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    Anyone have an extra stock BP4W laying around they want to sell? 4.30 Torsen?
    We have two complete engines, running but need rebulids. 4.3 opens, plus a loose torsen. Alex should have some bits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    We have two complete engines, running but need rebulids. 4.3 opens, plus a loose torsen. Alex should have some bits.
    What is allowed with a rebuild? Don't you usually need a slight over-bore of the cylinders? Maybe I'll finally crack open my old engine and see what's inside.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    What is allowed with a rebuild? Don't you usually need a slight over-bore of the cylinders? Maybe I'll finally crack open my old engine and see what's inside.
    100% OEM except valve spings free and chinese 530g+ forged rods. OEM pistons are available in .25 and .05mm oversize. Either is legal.
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    crusher has been converted back to super miata spec. I am on my way to the dyno right now to detune it to140whp.
    I will be driving super.so crusher is available if anyone wants to rent it.
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

  12. #192
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    My .02 on the rules, from someone who may not run the series because the engine rules are too restrictive.

    1. I like Anthony's idea of an integral figure for power to dissuade the PT-spec powerbands (i.e. flat power from 5000rpm to 8000rpm). Take the power from 5k to redline, average it, and it must be under some figure. E and I both understand exactly what happens when you give a specific power/weight or max power figure to target, so don't do that.

    2. If you elect to set a specific curb weight, don't make the comp weight too low. Rover is a fairly unmolested '89 chassis with a few lightweight bits (plastic front/rear windows) but it retains a full-weight dash and OEM bumpers/hardtop. I just built another similar car and spent no time on additional weight reduction, and the curb weight came out within 10lbs of Rover. It's a good representation of what someone in their garage could do without significant/excessive surgery. Curb on Rover is 2070 without gas or ballast. 2300 with driver is a good number that everyone can easily hit IMO. In that same vein, if you go with a p/w figure, don't give heavier cars a power/weight break like PT does. 16.0 is 16.0, whether you're 2050 or 2450 post-race.

    3. Limit max RPM to 7000rpm. That will achieve a few things - no more broken OEM damper bolts, no more broken throttle bodies (SMs don't break them nearly as much as we do...), takes away a portion of the 4.778/4.875 ratio benefit (more on that later), just a general cost reduction.

    4. I love my 4.77s. They make the car significantly more fun to drive. Even if I had a stock motor (I don't), I would think twice about running SPM if it means I had to pull them out. They aren't expensive like the unobtainable 4.875s but you get 99% of the benefit anyway. Moti paid $120 for his, and if you're lazy and don't want to search or pull them from a yard, I paid <$300 for my set straight from a Kia dealership. Took me ~30 minutes to find the part number and order them. One thought would be to allow OSGs and 4.77s for those who have them, but only with a 5-speed. Allow those with 4.30 Torsens to run a 6-speed. I think those two combos would be pretty close on track, and you'll get a couple more early adopters.

    5. Don't restrict brakes at all. PT requires me to use 1.6 brakes, so I do. It doesn't make the car any slower (and by corollary, the biggest, baddest brakes on the market don't make the car any faster). What BBks do is let you bleed the brakes less, flip pads less, and generally worry about the brakes less. I've started using $75/liter Castrol SRF in Rover's brakes because that's the only way I can maintain half-decent feel on a long run. No reason to limit brakes IMO - there's no performance benefit, just reliability/feel benefits.
    Theseus: '94 Miata, NASA SU/TTU (in progress)
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    I agree with what Sav said. Except for diff (too much headache for me, not everyone can install gears in torsen without spending $$)
    Well put.
    Especially the part about 7k rpm limit.
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  14. #194
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    I mostly agree with Savington too because some effects my car directly. I like the OSG with 5 speed rule since that's what currently have.

    I also don't want to swap engines because I don't think what I have is an advantage especially when we are capping whp. My engine makes less power and torque than a stock VVT with a standalone ecu.
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    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    Definitely agree with Savington about the brakes. I upgraded mine in search of more confidence in longer sessions on track. Had a few times where I began to lose the brakes at then end of measly 20 minute sessions and that is not something I enjoyed in the least. Not keen on having to downgrade them to a less confidence inspiring setup. Let us run as much or as little brake as we want, the pad is the part that matters most for performance and that's unrestricted anyways.

    -Ryan
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    Quote Originally Posted by b3d3g1 View Post
    I was thinking about ways better handle classifying how much power a car makes than just peak values and the power to weight ratios and I came up with 2 ideas.

    1) Peak values don't mean much anymore with custom maps so what if we did an area under the curve calculation off a dyno sheet. Maybe start at 5000 rpm and pick the power level off the curve every 500 rpm till red line and then average all these numbers to come up with a total power average number. I think this would dramatically equalize cars except for at a track like ACS which is all about HP. I feel a tuned car with a negative torque curve and flat power curve at 130 might be pretty equal to a car with a normal tune around 140 or 145 at the peak.

    2) Then, since the weight-to-power ratio is not linear with performance, have cars that are 2100-2200 have a 16.5 lb/hp, 2200-2300 get 16 lb/hp, and 2300+ have a 15.8 lb/hp. All these numbers would need to be adjusted to something that actually made sense but I don't think that would be too hard to figure out.

    I'm still having a hard time seeing how the restrictor plates will actually be used. Will it be someone making too much power on the dyno or someone who is turning too fast of lap times and get a penalty from Emilio or an assigned committee?
    1.
    William and I were just talking about this. Probably a simple formula something like:
    7200rpm max rev limiter setting
    <= 140whp max
    <= 125whp @ 5000rpm
    Add up power at 5000,5500,6000,6500,7000. Total of this "power area" can not exceed 665 or something like that.

    2. Power to weight will remain constant.

    ________

    Brakes
    Problem with leaving brakes open is knocking 12lbs off the front of the car is definitely and advantage. We will allow update/backdate from any year 90-05, master cylinder and pad compund open. The factory Sport brakes on our NB's are fantastic.
    I'm OK with a 7000rpm rev limit. Makes it easier for SM's with OEM ECU's to hang and reduces TB breakage.

    Final Drive and differential
    I didn't know the 4.77's were so cheap and easy to get. The reality is a 4.3 costs more from any current source and 4.3 Torsens are getting harder to find. Mots drivers will have to piece one together from a ubiquitous 4.1 Type I torsen and 4.3 open from a 5 speed NB. By the time they have done that, they could have just put a 4.77 in and probably done it cheaper. So logically, we leave FD open or maybe cap it at 4.77 max.

    That leaves the diff. We all know an OSG is worth a minimum of .25s and as much as 1s on some tracks. So how do we equalize? That's a huge difference. The 6 speed is about the same advantage over a 5 speed, .25s on some tracks, almost 1s on other configs.
    If everyone is OK with it, we make room for the OSG's by limiting them to 5 speeds as Andrew suggested. 6 spds allowed but only with 4.3 and Torsen. Does that work for everyone?
    Last edited by emilio700; 09-14-2013 at 06:16 PM.
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    1.
    William and I were just talking about this. Probably a simple formula something like:
    7200rpm max rev limiter setting
    <= 140whp max
    <= 125whp @ 5000rpm
    Add up power at 5000,5500,6000,6500,7000. Total of this "power area" can not exceed 665 or something like that.
    I like that a lot. 665 is a good number (that's 125@5k, 130@5.5k, 135@6k, 140@6.5k, 135@7k).

    Now consider that you don't need to require 100% OEM motors anymore - just require those specific power figures. Nobody will build a motor specifically for SPM who hasn't done so already because it will provide literally no benefit, but you'll entice PTE guys or open track day guys who might just need a retune to meet those power figures, and someone who's running SPM and PTE won't be forced to decide which series they want to be competitive in.

    Final Drive and differential
    I didn't know the 4.77's were so cheap and easy to get. The reality is a 4.3 costs more from any current source and 4.3 Torsens are getting harder to find. Mots drivers will have to piece one together from a ubiquitous 4.1 Type I torsen and 4.3 open from a 5 speed NB. By the time they have done that, they could have just put a 4.77 in and probably done it cheaper. So logically, we leave FD open or maybe cap it at 4.77 max.
    I like a 4.77 cap max. That's the cheapest numerically-high ratio you can get. Kia p/n MM057-27-110
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    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Brakes
    Problem with leaving brakes open is knocking 12lbs off the front of the car is definitely and advantage. We will allow update/backdate from any year 90-05, master cylinder and pad compund open. The factory Sport brakes on our NB's are fantastic.
    Since there's already a comp weight limit, the -12lbs is only an advantage in that it's unsprung weight. Is that really quantifiable to the point of not allowing people to run better brakes that can provide much better pad wear, reliability, fade resistance, and confidence? OEM calipers are far from ideal for race cars. Restricting other "race car" parts in order to keep costs down I get, but the brakes... makes me
    Last edited by thepass; 09-14-2013 at 09:48 PM.
    Ryan Passey
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  19. #199
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Ryan, as E pointed, there are factory brake combos that are more than adequate... Heck, you've driven Creampuff and the first thing that came out of your mouth after you came back in was how well the brakes work (E said that I can get away with murder with those, Lol..).
    Those are OEM sport brakes with XP10 / XP8 on a bone stock hydraulic system.

    The thing that makes your brakes not work wasn't the part that they were factory, it was that the RS-3s just couldn't handle the amount of stopping power.
    Last edited by Blackbird; 09-14-2013 at 09:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    That leaves the diff. We all know an OSG is worth a minimum of .25s and as much as 1s on some tracks. So how do we equalize? That's a huge difference. The 6 speed is about the same advantage over a 5 speed, .25s on some tracks, almost 1s on other configs.
    If everyone is OK with it, we make room for the OSG's by limiting them to 5 speeds as Andrew suggested. 6 spds allowed but only with 4.3 and Torsen. Does that work for everyone?
    Exactly what I suggested many pages ago -
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbird View Post
    the use of a fancy diff can be limited to users of 5 speed trans only, so you can either use a 5 speed plus whatever diff you want (OSG too) or a 6 speed and you must use an OEM diff with a ratio that was available in a USDM Miata - 3.9 / 4.1 / 4.3 .


    FWIW, I was nearly as lazy as Andrew buying mine, I found it on car-part.com in some wrecking yard in Sacramento and had it shipped to me for $120 at my door step.
    Last edited by Blackbird; 09-14-2013 at 09:49 PM.

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